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Re: [Hole Making] Tool Drive Point

Legend
Legend

I really think Development meant well with the hole making operations but I think they tried to go too far. I think Point to Point operation with updated auto clearance and checkiong would have been more than enough improvement. Sometimes too many features intended to make the software easier dillute its usability.

 


Dennis Rathi
Creations Unlimited

Re: [Hole Making] Tool Drive Point

Legend
Legend

I agree. A good way to test usability is show an unbiased new user how a function works. With "point to point" they were up and running within a day after learning the quirks of the menus. With hole_making I see even experienced users fumbling through the menus with a hit or miss approach. The behavior also varies slightly from each release, so it's not simply a training, or "read the docs" issue. The other paths like Adaptive, and Cavity have had useful continual improvements, but drilling holes, which should be the most simple, has become more difficult and time consuming. 

Glenn Balon
Production: NX 12.0.2 MP2 Primarily CAM

Re: [Hole Making] Tool Drive Point

Siemens Legend Siemens Legend
Siemens Legend

Tool Drive Point in the operation's Feature Geometry dialogue lets you define the volume you intend to remove.

Below are 2 screenshots of a drilling operation in NX 12.0.1 where the tool point is 118 deg and the modelled hole point is 135 deg. These angles are different on purpose since it illustrates the behaviour.(The purple tool volume will be removed)

Tool Drive Point = SYS_CL_SHOULDER gives this:

shoulder.JPG

 Tool Drive Point = SYS_CL_TIP gives this:

tip.JPG

When the tool angle is equal to the hole's bottom angle you will not see a difference when switching between TIP and SHOULDER.

Manual depth tweaks should not be necessary in most cases but when you need to override the inferred depth, like when drilling a pilot hole, use the Predefined Depth parameters. 

We would like to understand your problem better. Please provide an example of what worked for you in previous NX versions.

Reinier Capelle
NX CAM Development - Customer Success

Re: [Hole Making] Tool Drive Point

Legend
Legend

Hi Reinier,

 

When selecting "Use Predefined Depth" and set to  SYS_CL_TIP, I no longer get a depth distance from the top of hole/control point to my defined depth, which in this case is 0.65. The tool now goes deeper by a distance equal to the "point length" of the tool. 

 

Even on a through hole, I see no difference in SYS_CL_TIP vs SYS_CL_SHOULDER

 

Notice the depth on the last pic (.7251) is equal to the (.65 depth) + (.0751 Point Length)

 

EDIT: I have also confimed in the GCode, and measured the tool when in the graphics window in Verify.

 

predefined depth.PNG

point length.PNG

 

 

 

 

depth plus point length.PNG

Glenn Balon
Production: NX 12.0.2 MP2 Primarily CAM

Re: [Hole Making] Tool Drive Point

Siemens Legend Siemens Legend
Siemens Legend

Hello Glenn,

 

Setting Predefined Depth = 0.65 overrides the inferred depth at all times and makes it independent of the Tool Drive Point selection. This (0.65 inches) is the depth of the cylinder you intend to remove. The tip of the tool will go deeper (the Tip Length deeper) to make this happen.

Reinier Capelle
NX CAM Development - Customer Success

Re: [Hole Making] Tool Drive Point

Legend
Legend

@ReinierCapelle

 

So in hole_making, there is no way to define the drill depth from the tip of the tool to a specified value (without switching through the dialog to find and copy/paste the tip length)? I consider this the most basic function of any drill operation. 

 

If "Tool Drive Point" option is unavailable when "Use Predefined Depth" is active, shouldn't it be greyed out?

 

I will have to go back and test on NX10,11 the behavior seems different to me than it used to be. 

 

 

Glenn Balon
Production: NX 12.0.2 MP2 Primarily CAM

Re: [Hole Making] Tool Drive Point

Siemens Legend Siemens Legend
Siemens Legend

Hello Glenn,

 

All HoleDrilling operations (and also ChamferMilling, CylinderMilling, ThreadMilling) that are feature based, have operation depths associative with the CAD model. This enables Model Based Definition, easy adaptation to model changes etc.

 We recently introduced a new option to facilitate pilot hole drilling. We can pre-define a specified depth that cannot be inferred from the CAD model. This Use Predefined Depth comes with several options: Fixed Value, %ToolDiameter, %FluteLength. This predefined value is applied to all included (inprocess) features:

PD.JPG

 

If you are drilling a pilot hole, can you explain why the depth value so critical?   If this is the final dimension you need to hit, do you indeed intend to machine something different than what is modelled?  If you must make something different than what is modelled (crappy parts for instance), can you explain why you consider this requirement (specify the depth measured from the tool tip) "the most basic function of any drill operation"?  Once development understand this, we may be able to match with existing enhancement requests in this area.

Reinier Capelle
NX CAM Development - Customer Success

Re: [Hole Making] Tool Drive Point

Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor

I can give you some quick reasons for programming to tip.

 

1.   "No breakout allowed"   I know I can get to .xx distance of the outer wall.   I just want to go there by the tip.

2.  Breakthru and avoid hitting another feature. 

3.  Shop talk is tool tip.   That is what is programmed in the NC program.   Every shop note for program updates is to tip value.   Or .xx deeper/shallower.  

4.  Taps, if I program tap tip to .02" from blind hole bottom,  I will be good and not bottom out. 

5. In some cases blind hole definition and call out depths are minimum depths, just going .x deeper to the tip is a habit with many programmers in these cases.

6.  The modeled hole does not match the callout.   We need direct depth control, tip or shoulder whichever we choose.

 

Design features define functional need, not manufacturing.  We must derive a manufacturing process and need the freedom to do so. 

Re: [Hole Making] Tool Drive Point

Legend
Legend


Drill-bit-geometry.png

 

A drills actual tip never comes to a theoretical perfect point, as the way the defined tool in NX does (see pic). The difference between the perfect point on the modeled tool, and the actual drill tip geometry mean that the systems "Tip Length" is a theoretically perfect distance that does not match the real world tool. Therefore the "Tip Length" is just an approximation at best, which will require adjustment anyway. Even replacing a drill of the same size from the same manufacturer can yield a different tip length.

 

 

Other reasons to define depth from tip:

 

1. The tools offset is set from the tip. If you talk about drill depth to any setup guy, they will be thinking about the "tip" depth. If we need a full cylinder depth, this can be adjusted by the tool offset, or tweak the "Bottom Offset" in NX.

 

2. If I need to I can key in a known number that that I know will work. Example: I have a part with a wall .800 thick, and must drill and tap a hole, but can not break though, and must stay away form the opposite side by .050. I just type in .75 or .745. Done! With the way it works now, I have to compensate for the tip manually. Also, when opening up the operation, I am not able to see how deep I am drilling with a quick glance at the values.

 

3. All other CAM systems give this option, and PTP drilling also allowed programming using the tip depth. This is how people have been thinking for decades.

 

Most job shops get .step, or parasolids from their customers with no hole data. The print is usually seen as the bible, and we have all seen models that do not match the print. Generally, I am keying in numbers off the print. "Max drill depth" is often defined as a value on the print, from many of our customers.

 

Defining depth from the shoulder also does have its place, and there are times I use it, but I need the ability to control whether I am using the tip, or the shoulder.

 

 

Glenn Balon
Production: NX 12.0.2 MP2 Primarily CAM

Re: [Hole Making] Tool Drive Point

Legend
Legend

Drill-bit-geometry.png

A drills actual tip never comes to a theoretical perfect point, as the way the defined tool in NX does (see pic). The difference between the perfect point on the modeled tool, and the actual drill tip geometry mean that the systems "Tip Length" is a theoretically perfect distance that does not match the real world tool. Therefore the "Tip Length" is just an approximation at best, which will require adjustment anyway. Even replacing a drill of the same size from the same manufacturer can yield a different tip length.

 

Other reasons to define depth from tip:
1. The tools offset is set from the tip. If you talk about drill depth to any setup guy, they will be thinking about the "tip" depth. If we need a full cylinder depth, this can be adjusted by the tool offset, or tweak the "Bottom Offset" in NX.

 

2. If I need to I can key in a known number that that I know will work. Example: I have a part with a wall .800 thick, and must drill and tap a hole, but can not break though, and must stay away form the opposite side by .050. I just type in .75 or .745. Done! With the way it works now, I have to compensate for the tip manually. Also, when opening up the operation, I am not able to see how deep I am drilling with a quick glance at the values.

 

3. All other CAM systems give this option, and PTP drilling also allowed programming using the tip depth. This is how people have been thinking for decades.

 

4. Most job shops get .step, or parasolids from their customers with no hole data. The print is usually seen as the bible, and we have all seen models that do not match the print. Generally, I am keying in numbers off the print. "Max drill depth" is often defined as a value on the print, from many of our customers.

 

Defining depth from the shoulder also does have its place, and there are times I use it, but I need the ability to control whether I am using the tip, or the shoulder.

 

Glenn Balon
Production: NX 12.0.2 MP2 Primarily CAM

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