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11-25-2006 07:07 PM

In practicing dimensioning, measurements were made for the length of a pulley

belt located on 2 and 4 inch diameters with centerlines 4 inches apart. Using

ZOOM and math analysis, it was found that small position errors could result

unless features were locked. Question is what constitutes locked? The included

file shows initial two attempts with errors followed by a successful third

attempt agreeing with Excel analysis to 7 figures. The fourth sheet investigates

why but only serves to raise the question shown. The angle error indicated is

nearly 3% and is unacceptable. How can the line be tangent without being

perpendicular? Is there error in the program or the drawing shown? How can this

error be avoided?

7 REPLIES

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11-26-2006 12:02 AM

constraining the geometry. I have attached what was your "second try" and

cleaned it up and simplified it. It is not necessary to use all the

construction geometry. Some of your problems were caused by geometry

overlaid on other geometry which was not connected to what it should have

been.

--

Ken

http://grundey.blogspot.com

"Gil Tellier"

news:4568dac1$1@bbsnotes.ugs.com...

>

> In practicing dimensioning, measurements were made for the length of a

> pulley

> belt located on 2 and 4 inch diameters with centerlines 4 inches apart.

> Using

> ZOOM and math analysis, it was found that small position errors could

> result

> unless features were locked. Question is what constitutes locked? The

> included

> file shows initial two attempts with errors followed by a successful third

> attempt agreeing with Excel analysis to 7 figures. The fourth sheet

> investigates

> why but only serves to raise the question shown. The angle error indicated

> is

> nearly 3% and is unacceptable. How can the line be tangent without being

> perpendicular? Is there error in the program or the drawing shown? How can

> this

> error be avoided?

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11-27-2006 02:07 AM

Ken,

Thanks for the sketch. I have attempted to duplicate your results: draw two circles

and tangent lines, trim two inner arcs, dim tangent line and arc lengths, add inner

arcs back concentric, with the results shown in the attachment. I could not produce

green vertical dim line to get tangent angles and 4.00 dims. I also noted a missing

Point on (whatever that is) and an X at the connect points that was on your dwg.

Last, your radial dims seem locked and can be duplicated but not moved. Thanks again

for the help.

Gil Tellier

"PellaKen"

>I looked at your sketches, and essentially all could be fixed by properly

>

>constraining the geometry. I have attached what was your "second try" and

>

>cleaned it up and simplified it. It is not necessary to use all the

>construction geometry. Some of your problems were caused by geometry

>overlaid on other geometry which was not connected to what it should have

>

>been.

>

>--

>Ken

>http://grundey.blogspot.com

>

>"Gil Tellier"

>news:4568dac1$1@bbsnotes.ugs.com...

>>

>> In practicing dimensioning, measurements were made for the length of a

>> pulley

>> belt located on 2 and 4 inch diameters with centerlines 4 inches apart.

>

>> Using

>> ZOOM and math analysis, it was found that small position errors could

>> result

>> unless features were locked. Question is what constitutes locked? The

>> included

>> file shows initial two attempts with errors followed by a successful third

>> attempt agreeing with Excel analysis to 7 figures. The fourth sheet

>> investigates

>> why but only serves to raise the question shown. The angle error indicated

>

>> is

>> nearly 3% and is unacceptable. How can the line be tangent without being

>> perpendicular? Is there error in the program or the drawing shown? How can

>

>> this

>> error be avoided?

>

>

>

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11-27-2006 09:55 AM

I started with two circles set at the radiuses shown, I placed a

Horizontal Connect between the two centers, added the tangent lines on the

side which received both an Point On Connect (the "X") and a Tangent

constraint on each end. To be able to measure the arc length on each

circle, I used the Split Element command to split the circles into arcs at

the endpoint of the lines.

The angle dimensions where placed using the Horizontal/Vertical option and

selecting the center point of the circle and the endpoint of the line (very

important to select the keypoints on the element and not the element in

general).

--

Ken

http://grundey.blogspot.com

"Gil Tellier"

news:456a8eac@bbsnotes.ugs.com...

>

> Ken,

> Thanks for the sketch. I have attempted to duplicate your results: draw

> two circles

> and tangent lines, trim two inner arcs, dim tangent line and arc lengths,

> add inner

> arcs back concentric, with the results shown in the attachment. I could

> not produce

> green vertical dim line to get tangent angles and 4.00 dims. I also noted

> a missing

> Point on (whatever that is) and an X at the connect points that was on

> your dwg.

> Last, your radial dims seem locked and can be duplicated but not moved.

> Thanks again

> for the help.

> Gil Tellier

>

> "PellaKen"

>>I looked at your sketches, and essentially all could be fixed by properly

>>

>>constraining the geometry. I have attached what was your "second try" and

>>

>>cleaned it up and simplified it. It is not necessary to use all the

>>construction geometry. Some of your problems were caused by geometry

>>overlaid on other geometry which was not connected to what it should have

>>

>>been.

>>

>>--

>>Ken

>>http://grundey.blogspot.com

>>

>>"Gil Tellier"

>>news:4568dac1$1@bbsnotes.ugs.com...

>>>

>>> In practicing dimensioning, measurements were made for the length of a

>>> pulley

>>> belt located on 2 and 4 inch diameters with centerlines 4 inches apart.

>>

>>> Using

>>> ZOOM and math analysis, it was found that small position errors could

>>> result

>>> unless features were locked. Question is what constitutes locked? The

>>> included

>>> file shows initial two attempts with errors followed by a successful

>>> third

>>> attempt agreeing with Excel analysis to 7 figures. The fourth sheet

>>> investigates

>>> why but only serves to raise the question shown. The angle error

>>> indicated

>>

>>> is

>>> nearly 3% and is unacceptable. How can the line be tangent without being

>>> perpendicular? Is there error in the program or the drawing shown? How

>>> can

>>

>>> this

>>> error be avoided?

>>

>>

>>

>

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11-27-2006 07:18 PM

Ken,

I am about 80% there with the split command. However, I cannot place the 4.0 inch

between centers nor obtain a verticle dim line through the hole center and radial

line through the split points. See sheet 2 of attachment.

Gil

"PellaKen"

>Gil,

> I started with two circles set at the radiuses shown, I placed a

>Horizontal Connect between the two centers, added the tangent lines on the

>

>side which received both an Point On Connect (the "X") and a Tangent

>constraint on each end. To be able to measure the arc length on each

>circle, I used the Split Element command to split the circles into arcs at

>

>the endpoint of the lines.

>

>

>The angle dimensions where placed using the Horizontal/Vertical option and

>

>selecting the center point of the circle and the endpoint of the line (very

>

>important to select the keypoints on the element and not the element in

>general).

>

>--

>Ken

>http://grundey.blogspot.com

>

>"Gil Tellier"

>news:456a8eac@bbsnotes.ugs.com...

>>

>> Ken,

>> Thanks for the sketch. I have attempted to duplicate your results: draw

>

>> two circles

>> and tangent lines, trim two inner arcs, dim tangent line and arc lengths,

>

>> add inner

>> arcs back concentric, with the results shown in the attachment. I could

>

>> not produce

>> green vertical dim line to get tangent angles and 4.00 dims. I also noted

>

>> a missing

>> Point on (whatever that is) and an X at the connect points that was on

>> your dwg.

>> Last, your radial dims seem locked and can be duplicated but not moved.

>

>> Thanks again

>> for the help.

>> Gil Tellier

>>

>> "PellaKen"

>>>I looked at your sketches, and essentially all could be fixed by properly

>>>

>>>constraining the geometry. I have attached what was your "second try" and

>>>

>>>cleaned it up and simplified it. It is not necessary to use all the

>>>construction geometry. Some of your problems were caused by geometry

>>>overlaid on other geometry which was not connected to what it should have

>>>

>>>been.

>>>

>>>--

>>>Ken

>>>http://grundey.blogspot.com

>>>

>>>"Gil Tellier"

>>>news:4568dac1$1@bbsnotes.ugs.com...

>>>>

>>>> In practicing dimensioning, measurements were made for the length of a

>>>> pulley

>>>> belt located on 2 and 4 inch diameters with centerlines 4 inches apart.

>>>

>>>> Using

>>>> ZOOM and math analysis, it was found that small position errors could

>>>> result

>>>> unless features were locked. Question is what constitutes locked? The

>>>> included

>>>> file shows initial two attempts with errors followed by a successful

>>>> third

>>>> attempt agreeing with Excel analysis to 7 figures. The fourth sheet

>>>> investigates

>>>> why but only serves to raise the question shown. The angle error

>>>> indicated

>>>

>>>> is

>>>> nearly 3% and is unacceptable. How can the line be tangent without being

>>>> perpendicular? Is there error in the program or the drawing shown? How

>

>>>> can

>>>

>>>> this

>>>> error be avoided?

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>

>

>

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11-28-2006 08:12 PM

Ken,

After playing aroung with your file, reading the help files to no avail, I stumbled

on the answers to my two questions: (1)to place a 4.0 dim between two circles on

a horizontal grid line, use SmartDim with the hor/vert option and click on each

circle perimeter, not the center (the same result can be obtained using DistBetween

with 2 point option except that the circle must light up and the center mark be

visible on each with the mouse click); and, (2)to obtain a vertical angular dim

line through a circle center, use Angle Between and pass the cursor over the circle

causing it to light up red, click on the center then the line tangent point. For

the gurus, did I miss this in the instruction manual? Thanks again for your help

Ken. I have attached my practice file for others.

Gil Tellier

"Gil Tellier"

>

>

>

>Ken,

>I am about 80% there with the split command. However, I cannot place the 4.0

>inch

>between centers nor obtain a verticle dim line through the hole center and

>radial

>line through the split points. See sheet 2 of attachment.

>Gil

>

>

>"PellaKen"

>>Gil,

>> I started with two circles set at the radiuses shown, I placed a

>>Horizontal Connect between the two centers, added the tangent lines on the

>>

>>side which received both an Point On Connect (the "X") and a Tangent

>>constraint on each end. To be able to measure the arc length on each

>>circle, I used the Split Element command to split the circles into arcs at

>>

>>the endpoint of the lines.

>>

>>

>>The angle dimensions where placed using the Horizontal/Vertical option and

>>

>>selecting the center point of the circle and the endpoint of the line (very

>>

>>important to select the keypoints on the element and not the element in

>>general).

>>

>>--

>>Ken

>>http://grundey.blogspot.com

>>

>>"Gil Tellier"

>>news:456a8eac@bbsnotes.ugs.com...

>>>

>>> Ken,

>>> Thanks for the sketch. I have attempted to duplicate your results: draw

>>

>>> two circles

>>> and tangent lines, trim two inner arcs, dim tangent line and arc lengths,

>>

>>> add inner

>>> arcs back concentric, with the results shown in the attachment. I could

>>

>>> not produce

>>> green vertical dim line to get tangent angles and 4.00 dims. I also noted

>>

>>> a missing

>>> Point on (whatever that is) and an X at the connect points that was on

>

>>> your dwg.

>>> Last, your radial dims seem locked and can be duplicated but not moved.

>>

>>> Thanks again

>>> for the help.

>>> Gil Tellier

>>>

>>> "PellaKen"

>>>>I looked at your sketches, and essentially all could be fixed by properly

>>>>

>>>>constraining the geometry. I have attached what was your "second try"

>and

>>>>

>>>>cleaned it up and simplified it. It is not necessary to use all the

>>>>construction geometry. Some of your problems were caused by geometry

>>>>overlaid on other geometry which was not connected to what it should have

>>>>

>>>>been.

>>>>

>>>>--

>>>>Ken

>>>>http://grundey.blogspot.com

>>>>

>>>>"Gil Tellier"

>>>>news:4568dac1$1@bbsnotes.ugs.com...

>>>>>

>>>>> In practicing dimensioning, measurements were made for the length of

>a

>>>>> pulley

>>>>> belt located on 2 and 4 inch diameters with centerlines 4 inches apart.

>>>>

>>>>> Using

>>>>> ZOOM and math analysis, it was found that small position errors could

>>>>> result

>>>>> unless features were locked. Question is what constitutes locked? The

>>>>> included

>>>>> file shows initial two attempts with errors followed by a successful

>

>>>>> third

>>>>> attempt agreeing with Excel analysis to 7 figures. The fourth sheet

>>>>> investigates

>>>>> why but only serves to raise the question shown. The angle error

>>>>> indicated

>>>>

>>>>> is

>>>>> nearly 3% and is unacceptable. How can the line be tangent without being

>>>>> perpendicular? Is there error in the program or the drawing shown? How

>>

>>>>> can

>>>>

>>>>> this

>>>>> error be avoided?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>

>>

>>

>

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11-29-2006 01:30 PM

buried somewhere where it is impossible to find). Just remember that

dimensions behave completely different depending on whether an elements

keypoint is selected as opposed to the element itself and/or based on the

orientation setting (Horiz./Vert. or By Two Points) especially with commands

such as with the Angle Between.

--

Ken

http://grundey.blogspot.com

"Gil Tellier"

news:456cde70@bbsnotes.ugs.com...

>

> Ken,

> After playing aroung with your file, reading the help files to no avail, I

> stumbled

> on the answers to my two questions: (1)to place a 4.0 dim between two

> circles on

> a horizontal grid line, use SmartDim with the hor/vert option and click on

> each

> circle perimeter, not the center (the same result can be obtained using

> DistBetween

> with 2 point option except that the circle must light up and the center

> mark be

> visible on each with the mouse click); and, (2)to obtain a vertical

> angular dim

> line through a circle center, use Angle Between and pass the cursor over

> the circle

> causing it to light up red, click on the center then the line tangent

> point. For

> the gurus, did I miss this in the instruction manual? Thanks again for

> your help

> Ken. I have attached my practice file for others.

> Gil Tellier

>

> "Gil Tellier"

>>

>>

>>

>>Ken,

>>I am about 80% there with the split command. However, I cannot place the

>>4.0

>>inch

>>between centers nor obtain a verticle dim line through the hole center and

>>radial

>>line through the split points. See sheet 2 of attachment.

>>Gil

>>

>>

>>"PellaKen"

>>>Gil,

>>> I started with two circles set at the radiuses shown, I placed a

>>>Horizontal Connect between the two centers, added the tangent lines on

>>>the

>>>

>>>side which received both an Point On Connect (the "X") and a Tangent

>>>constraint on each end. To be able to measure the arc length on each

>>>circle, I used the Split Element command to split the circles into arcs

>>>at

>>>

>>>the endpoint of the lines.

>>>

>>>

>>>The angle dimensions where placed using the Horizontal/Vertical option

>>>and

>>>

>>>selecting the center point of the circle and the endpoint of the line

>>>(very

>>>

>>>important to select the keypoints on the element and not the element in

>>>general).

>>>

>>>--

>>>Ken

>>>http://grundey.blogspot.com

>>>

>>>"Gil Tellier"

>>>news:456a8eac@bbsnotes.ugs.com...

>>>>

>>>> Ken,

>>>> Thanks for the sketch. I have attempted to duplicate your results: draw

>>>

>>>> two circles

>>>> and tangent lines, trim two inner arcs, dim tangent line and arc

>>>> lengths,

>>>

>>>> add inner

>>>> arcs back concentric, with the results shown in the attachment. I could

>>>

>>>> not produce

>>>> green vertical dim line to get tangent angles and 4.00 dims. I also

>>>> noted

>>>

>>>> a missing

>>>> Point on (whatever that is) and an X at the connect points that was on

>>

>>>> your dwg.

>>>> Last, your radial dims seem locked and can be duplicated but not moved.

>>>

>>>> Thanks again

>>>> for the help.

>>>> Gil Tellier

>>>>

>>>> "PellaKen"

>>>>>I looked at your sketches, and essentially all could be fixed by

>>>>>properly

>>>>>

>>>>>constraining the geometry. I have attached what was your "second try"

>>and

>>>>>

>>>>>cleaned it up and simplified it. It is not necessary to use all the

>>>>>construction geometry. Some of your problems were caused by geometry

>>>>>overlaid on other geometry which was not connected to what it should

>>>>>have

>>>>>

>>>>>been.

>>>>>

>>>>>--

>>>>>Ken

>>>>>http://grundey.blogspot.com

>>>>>

>>>>>"Gil Tellier"

>>>>>news:4568dac1$1@bbsnotes.ugs.com...

>>>>>>

>>>>>> In practicing dimensioning, measurements were made for the length of

>>a

>>>>>> pulley

>>>>>> belt located on 2 and 4 inch diameters with centerlines 4 inches

>>>>>> apart.

>>>>>

>>>>>> Using

>>>>>> ZOOM and math analysis, it was found that small position errors could

>>>>>> result

>>>>>> unless features were locked. Question is what constitutes locked? The

>>>>>> included

>>>>>> file shows initial two attempts with errors followed by a successful

>>

>>>>>> third

>>>>>> attempt agreeing with Excel analysis to 7 figures. The fourth sheet

>>>>>> investigates

>>>>>> why but only serves to raise the question shown. The angle error

>>>>>> indicated

>>>>>

>>>>>> is

>>>>>> nearly 3% and is unacceptable. How can the line be tangent without

>>>>>> being

>>>>>> perpendicular? Is there error in the program or the drawing shown?

>>>>>> How

>>>

>>>>>> can

>>>>>

>>>>>> this

>>>>>> error be avoided?

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>

>>>

>>

>

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11-29-2006 10:50 PM

Ken,

Good points that I'll keep in mind. I think that this concludes our session

so thanks again for the assist.

Gil Tellier

"PellaKen"

>I don't know that you missed anything (It is probably not documented or is

>

>buried somewhere where it is impossible to find). Just remember that

>dimensions behave completely different depending on whether an elements

>keypoint is selected as opposed to the element itself and/or based on the

>

>orientation setting (Horiz./Vert. or By Two Points) especially with commands

>

>such as with the Angle Between.

>

>--

>Ken

>http://grundey.blogspot.com

>

>"Gil Tellier"

>news:456cde70@bbsnotes.ugs.com...

>>

>> Ken,

>> After playing aroung with your file, reading the help files to no avail,

>I

>> stumbled

>> on the answers to my two questions: (1)to place a 4.0 dim between two

>> circles on

>> a horizontal grid line, use SmartDim with the hor/vert option and click

>on

>> each

>> circle perimeter, not the center (the same result can be obtained using

>

>> DistBetween

>> with 2 point option except that the circle must light up and the center

>

>> mark be

>> visible on each with the mouse click); and, (2)to obtain a vertical

>> angular dim

>> line through a circle center, use Angle Between and pass the cursor over

>

>> the circle

>> causing it to light up red, click on the center then the line tangent

>> point. For

>> the gurus, did I miss this in the instruction manual? Thanks again for

>> your help

>> Ken. I have attached my practice file for others.

>> Gil Tellier

>>

>> "Gil Tellier"

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>Ken,

>>>I am about 80% there with the split command. However, I cannot place the

>

>>>4.0

>>>inch

>>>between centers nor obtain a verticle dim line through the hole center and

>>>radial

>>>line through the split points. See sheet 2 of attachment.

>>>Gil

>>>

>>>

>>>"PellaKen"

>>>>Gil,

>>>> I started with two circles set at the radiuses shown, I placed a

>>>>Horizontal Connect between the two centers, added the tangent lines on

>

>>>>the

>>>>

>>>>side which received both an Point On Connect (the "X") and a Tangent

>>>>constraint on each end. To be able to measure the arc length on each

>>>>circle, I used the Split Element command to split the circles into arcs

>

>>>>at

>>>>

>>>>the endpoint of the lines.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>The angle dimensions where placed using the Horizontal/Vertical option

>

>>>>and

>>>>

>>>>selecting the center point of the circle and the endpoint of the line

>>>>(very

>>>>

>>>>important to select the keypoints on the element and not the element in

>>>>general).

>>>>

>>>>--

>>>>Ken

>>>>http://grundey.blogspot.com

>>>>

>>>>"Gil Tellier"

>>>>news:456a8eac@bbsnotes.ugs.com...

>>>>>

>>>>> Ken,

>>>>> Thanks for the sketch. I have attempted to duplicate your results: draw

>>>>

>>>>> two circles

>>>>> and tangent lines, trim two inner arcs, dim tangent line and arc

>>>>> lengths,

>>>>

>>>>> add inner

>>>>> arcs back concentric, with the results shown in the attachment. I could

>>>>

>>>>> not produce

>>>>> green vertical dim line to get tangent angles and 4.00 dims. I also

>>>>> noted

>>>>

>>>>> a missing

>>>>> Point on (whatever that is) and an X at the connect points that was on

>>>

>>>>> your dwg.

>>>>> Last, your radial dims seem locked and can be duplicated but not moved.

>>>>

>>>>> Thanks again

>>>>> for the help.

>>>>> Gil Tellier

>>>>>

>>>>> "PellaKen"

>>>>>>I looked at your sketches, and essentially all could be fixed by

>>>>>>properly

>>>>>>

>>>>>>constraining the geometry. I have attached what was your "second try"

>>>and

>>>>>>

>>>>>>cleaned it up and simplified it. It is not necessary to use all the

>>>>>>construction geometry. Some of your problems were caused by geometry

>>>>>>overlaid on other geometry which was not connected to what it should

>

>>>>>>have

>>>>>>

>>>>>>been.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>--

>>>>>>Ken

>>>>>>http://grundey.blogspot.com

>>>>>>

>>>>>>"Gil Tellier"

>>>>>>news:4568dac1$1@bbsnotes.ugs.com...

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> In practicing dimensioning, measurements were made for the length of

>>>a

>>>>>>> pulley

>>>>>>> belt located on 2 and 4 inch diameters with centerlines 4 inches

>>>>>>> apart.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Using

>>>>>>> ZOOM and math analysis, it was found that small position errors could

>>>>>>> result

>>>>>>> unless features were locked. Question is what constitutes locked? The

>>>>>>> included

>>>>>>> file shows initial two attempts with errors followed by a successful

>>>

>>>>>>> third

>>>>>>> attempt agreeing with Excel analysis to 7 figures. The fourth sheet

>>>>>>> investigates

>>>>>>> why but only serves to raise the question shown. The angle error

>>>>>>> indicated

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> is

>>>>>>> nearly 3% and is unacceptable. How can the line be tangent without

>

>>>>>>> being

>>>>>>> perpendicular? Is there error in the program or the drawing shown?

>

>>>>>>> How

>>>>

>>>>>>> can

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> this

>>>>>>> error be avoided?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>

>>

>

>

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