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Re: Teamcenter - yes or no?

Gears Esteemed Contributor Gears Esteemed Contributor
Gears Esteemed Contributor

@Johnson_BigMattsaid: "But, be aware of the newer TC Rapid Start Options and the ability to use TC OOTB... "

 

Can you elaborate?

Bruce Shand
SE2019 MP5 - Insight - Win10 - K4200

Re: Teamcenter - yes or no?

Gears Phenom Gears Phenom
Gears Phenom

@bshand Et Al

 

TCRS  -  Teamcenter Rapid Start...   I have NO personal experience with!!!.  I was just bringing it up as I have heard of it in the more recent years. 

 

From my understanding, it is supposed to be a "faster" / "easier" way for smaller companies to "set up" an instance of TC without the need for lots of configuring or customization, thus being able to set up and run OOTB (out of the box)

 

SO... this was just an FYI.....     BUT YMMV!!!   I personally would rather go full-blown TC and get the desired set up for the company...   and I think the pricing between the two might lean folk to full-blown as well.

 

 

Matt Johnson
Solid Edge Certified Professional
Solid Edge 2019 (SEEC) - Production
NX12 (Tc Integration)
Teamcenter 10.1.7

Re: Teamcenter - yes or no?

Gears Esteemed Contributor Gears Esteemed Contributor
Gears Esteemed Contributor

@Johnson_BigMatt,  OK. You said "beware" when I should have parsed it as "be aware". Interesting that full-blown is less expensive than RS. @Jamie_Griffis informed me of that surprising (to me) fact as well.

Edit: actually you didn't say "beware". My eyes thought they saw it though. Smiley Happy

Bruce Shand
SE2019 MP5 - Insight - Win10 - K4200

Re: Teamcenter - yes or no?

Gears Phenom Gears Phenom
Gears Phenom

@Trikefreak   

 

I do not sell...   but do support...   BUT    I support for and from within a using company.

My comments are from 10+ years of being a user!

 

As a USER I prefer TC and with more than 3 users I don't know how anyone could truly MANAGE data without a PDM.

 

I assume since we are in the SE forum that you are considering SE integration with TC.   This is known as SEEC (Solid Edge Embedded Client), SEEC seamlessly integrates the Solid Edge UI with the needed functionality of Teamcenter.   Save, revise, part copy, mirror, Replace, CHeck-out, check-in...   all of this comes along to the CAD user without any change to their daily tasks.   A typical designer may never need to log into "Teamcenter"  via the Thin or the Rich client...  it all depends on how your dept. is set up, Roles are used, and who does what work... 

 

Teamcenter is much more than just this though.  and here is where one could feel like a salesman...   for your external business partners, vendors, shop personnel, management.....   all these folks can now have access to your design data, IF, AS, and WHEN needed...  TC offers "automatic" translations and multiple datasets to be collected in a single Item/rev...   visualization,  workflows, etc etc...

 

DO you have specific Q's ...    I neither can answer time studies...  I know as a user I have wasted countless hours looking for data on hard drives and network drives and have used the wrong part and thus screwed up a revision...  In TC this just does not happen.   DO you see some performance issues getting data to and from a cache location?  yes, sometimes... but again...  for me...  You are already paying...  you are just choosing to Pay nor or Pay Later...   

 

If one is solely focused on Time savings I believe they have missed the big picture of PDM. 

 

 

 

 

Matt Johnson
Solid Edge Certified Professional
Solid Edge 2019 (SEEC) - Production
NX12 (Tc Integration)
Teamcenter 10.1.7

Re: Teamcenter - yes or no?

Gears Phenom Gears Phenom
Gears Phenom

@bshand - At first I also read it as 'beware" instead of "be aware". I would have use the first term myself. You know how I fell about TCRS. 

Jamie

Jamie Griffis | PLM Solution Architect | Engineering USA

Re: Teamcenter - yes or no?

Legend
Legend

I remember the University discussions on insight, and as a user, I wanted a way to find that one channel in our library, that we have hundreds of variations of, that has that .390 notch for a specific reason. I was assured that was easy to accomplish, but never saw an example how this would be accomplished.

 

5 years later, I don't know if I really see any benefit, at least not in any visual, or verbal explanations. I hear a few of you say it is wonderful for management of data, but I have no idea what you are trying to convey.

 

Sorry for being negative, it's not intended, believe it or not. It's just that nobody has given a single detailed example of how it makes their workflow easier, quicker, or more accurate. If I missed any statements that did, I must have read into them wrong.

 

I'll stop, the more I try to get information, the more I seem to piss people off...........

 

 

Re: Teamcenter - yes or no?

Gears Esteemed Contributor Gears Esteemed Contributor
Gears Esteemed Contributor

I don't think anyone is pissed off. I, for one, welcome your questions. I think most of us would agree that some sort of managed system is better than none. @Johnson_BigMatt's gage of 3 or more users is a pretty good one IMO.

Since Insight is going away we're probably going TC as well even though it's overkill for our needs. In other words we'll likely never use it for much beyond what we use Insight for now. Like you with TC I have vague notions of whether or not BiDM would work instead.

Bruce Shand
SE2019 MP5 - Insight - Win10 - K4200

Re: Teamcenter - yes or no?

Legend
Legend

Thanks for the feedback, I suspected you would have some input on how insight affects your daily operations.

 

I know insight wasn't a cheap option back then, so I can guess what teamcenter is going to cost. Owners are going to want to know their return on investment, as you would expect. I see all these glorious testimonials, but no details. This is what I call the salesman pitch.

 

It's easier to understand why there is talk of outsourcing all design overseas........

Re: Teamcenter - yes or no?

Siemens Phenom Siemens Phenom
Siemens Phenom

Salesmen are just… people trying to get you to buy something so that  they go home in the evenings to their family, keep a roof over their heads, food on the table, and shoes on the feet of the kiddos…  and just like with all professions, some are better at their jobs than others.  A good salesmen will not tell you that you can automagically improve your design time by X factor simply by purchasing some magic beans (software).

 

Before coming to Siemens PLM and GTAC I was a customer and end user of Siemens products.  I attempted to install Teamcenter for three different companies I was directly employed with (i.e. not a contractor to perform a service).  Of those three implementations, two were successful and one was a flop.  I also was involved with competitor implementations and usage (eMatrix, Windchill, Envovia, Metaphase to name a few) for other employers so when I speak of PLM software I do so as as both a user and now as an employee of a PLM vendor.  One of my decisions to come to work for Siemens PLM was that after working with many different products, Siemens had IMHO the overall best suite of products and that was something I wanted to be a part of.  No, it is not all rainbows and unicorns with Siemens products but I still stand by that we overall provide the best suite of tools in this business.  So when I speak to any user about PLM and Teamcenter, I do so with the background of a former customer and not with the intent to sell product.

 

One thing you will quickly learn about trying to implement PLM is that it does not fix your broken process.  In fact it will simply make those broken processes worse by highlighting how those processes are currently failing.  All a PLM system does is automate processes.  If your manual process is "junk" (insert appropriate choice of word here), without work, your implementation of the exact same process  to be automated will simply result in automated junk.  This in of itself does not mean that the software is bad.   Where time is spent, and lost, in PLM implementations is attempting to identify and fix those broken processes.  I have sat in too many process review meetings before implementing in PLM to have a lead person whip out their ISO Quality manual and state "our procedure to do an engineering change is fully documented here" (insert  your process here) to then actually talk to the people running these engineering changes to find out all the shortcuts and parts of the documented process they actually don't follow or work around. 

 

So with all that said, what you need to do is not worry about what savings or improvements in processes other companies have made.  I guarantee you that no other company does design work the same way as your company.  Yes you may have competitors that design and manufacture the same product as your company but they certainly do not have the exact same processes as you.  Therefore their implementations of PLM and any improvements will not apply to you.

 

Instead you need to focus on identifying what are your pain points in your organization and working to eliminate those with PLM. 

 

Are you consistently building the wrong product because of issues with locating the correct drawings or part files.  Do you have that one shop guy with a paper copy of a drawing squirreled away in a drawer somewhere?  There is a lot of value in "single version of the truth" (SVOT) but honestly if you do not suffer from such then SVOT won't gain you much.  For the record, I have never met a company yet that could not use a SVOT but there is always a first.  However, only you can identify how much SVOT is costing your company -- no salesman knows that for you.

 

Do you do a lot of file translations to send to vendors and spend a lot of person hours on this?  Implementing an automated translation workflow and supplier delivery process will be a huge benefit to you then.  However, if you do not spend much time on file translations then such a solution is not going to give you bang for your buck. 

 

Do you do a lot of engineering changes and is there a lot of manual paperwork generation in that process?  One employer I worked for, we determined that every engineering change, based on the simplest change possible i.e. a typo correction on a single drawing, cost the company a minimum $950 per engineering change to process, with more complex changes obviously costing more.  $950 per change doesn't sound much but when we were processing approx. $5,000+ a week in engineering changes  that mounted up extremely quickly.  It did not take much calculation or a great salesman to figure out that automating our manual paperwork and thereby reducing the cost of just this engineering change process alone would quickly provide ROI for our Teamcenter implementation.  But if you do not do many engineering changes, again such a return on investment as it was for my former employer is of no benefit to you. 


So for the TLDR version, I go back to my earlier statement, focus on your pain points and choose to address those with Teamcenter.  Teamcenter will only do what you tell it to do.  So what do you want it to do?

Re: Teamcenter - yes or no?

Gears Phenom Gears Phenom
Gears Phenom

Alright, @uk_dave, I went and dug up a few numbers.

 

Our starting cost per change is US$1500.  (I'd love to be below $1000.) That starting cost is what it takes just to push the paper around - from initial change proposal through released document. Any hiccup in the change, scope creep, or hardware dispositions can mutiply the cost.

 

The ROI for PLM is going to be in areas where we automate the process.

 

In our current electronic process with manual intervention, one employee spends nearly 1.5 hours per day logging documents, setting up approval routings, checking progress, applying released status, copying & moving files, creating pdf files, inserting metadata, and emailing a public announcement of new releases. That's for only a few changes a day.  When we're busy, we had 1 person doing that full time plus 2 designers who could do that for their own documents.

 

So, on a slow day like my example, assume $200/hr (salary+benefits rate) * 1.5 hrs * 5 days = $1500 / wk.

You can also say that he spends 390 hrs a year (~10 full weeks of time) = $78,000 / yr. (nearly a F/T base salary)

 

Do you want to include opportunity cost?

Studies show that task switching costs 20 minutes at a time. He has to switch at least twice per day, sometimes 3 times depending on the urgency of the change. That's an extra 0.6 hrs / day wasted ($31,200 / yr).  And, considering this time releasing documents could be spent doing other productive design work means that we can double the original cost (actual cost plus lost productivity).

 

Grand total savings by automating the release process in PLM => between $78,000 and $187,200 / yr -- and that's in a slow year and not taking advantage of any other functionality of a PLM system.  Document routing is a basic PDM function.

 

Teamcenter - yes or no?  YES!


____________________________________
--Scott Wertel, P.E.