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philosophy requested behind that kind of dimensioning in 2D and extruded 2D

Genius
Genius

Hi all

 

If I have a scetch and modify one value in the dimension, nothing happens except the dimension is marked as not true.

If I just extrude the same geometry, click the same dimension label and insert the same value as before, the dimension is changed to that extent instead of being marked being not true.

 

Right now I feel the different behaviour for a 2D and a extruded 2D geometry confusing, because I need to learn that without understandig the philosophy behind that.

 

Can someone tell me the common philosophy?

 

best regards

Hans

 

(view in My Videos)

11 REPLIES

Re: philosophy requested behind that kind of dimensioning in 2D and extruded 2D

Gears Esteemed Contributor Gears Esteemed Contributor
Gears Esteemed Contributor

Sketch dimensions can be Driving or Driven.  If the lock on the command bar is shown as "locked" for the selected dimension, then it is Driving and you can change the value and it "drives" the geometry.  If the lock on the command bar is shown as "unlocked" for the selected dimension, then it is Driven and it does not "drive" the geometry, so changing the value just overrides the value and thus marks it as such.

 

PMI Dimensions on Synchronous faces also have the lock on the command bar and the value entry dialog but it works a bit different where it's states are Locked and Unlocked but both modes will "drive" the geometry.  When Locked, it means the only the dimension value can move a face and you cannot move the face with the steering wheel.  When unlocked, you can move the face with either the dimension or the steering wheel.



Ken
Production: ST10 MP9, Testing: SE 2019
http://Grundey.blogspot.com

Re: philosophy requested behind that kind of dimensioning in 2D and extruded 2D

Genius
Genius

The lock in the window, where I put in the dimension, is open in both cases

1) in the pure 2D environment

P1.jpg

 

2) in the extruded geometry

P2.jpg

 

 

Unfortunately I cannot view the video, I had included in my initial post. In the area, where the video should be visible there is a message on black groud, claiming "order cannot be performed, unknown order". What is the cause of this?

I can play the video stored on my computer, but I cannot view the same video in the forum ...

I include it a second time

(view in My Videos)

 

best regards

Hans

Re: philosophy requested behind that kind of dimensioning in 2D and extruded 2D

Gears Esteemed Contributor Gears Esteemed Contributor
Gears Esteemed Contributor

Hi @Hans11

 

 

 

You only have to read carefully what @KennyG has said.

 

There is a BIG difference between 2D sketch geometry and dimensions and 3D faces and PMI dimensions.

 

For 2D sketch geometry and sketch dimensions (and this also might have histroical reasons) theer is a rule:

You ONLY can change a dimension for 2D geometry if it is red (or better said it is DRIVING)

In Your German interfac You will have a "Variable" and a "Abhängige Bemaßung".

Take care that the dimensions in the 2D sketch are RED and Driving (Variabel)

 

20171020_1403.PNG

 

If this is not as shown, then YOu will have problems to change anything!

 

On the other hand, when YOu already have a body, faces AND You also are working "Synchronous" (very important) then You will have PMI dimensions not sketch dimensions.

 

Although they are using the same colors they have a differnet reaction and behaviour of be used.

 

If a PMI dimension is BLUE then it can be used for changing the geometry.

But alos You can select those geometry and change it by mouse movements.

The dimension value will also be changed.

 

If You have a locked dimension (RED) then YOu only can change this dimesnion value by changing the value itself but not with a mouse action

 

This is the very important difference bewtwenn them.

 

And if You will have understand this policy You will get happy with Synch.

 

Another hint I can give to You is, don't dimension sketches for snyc modeling!

Put dimensino on Your body if You see trhe body and You see what You want to have and what YOu want to fix.

 

This policy also will prevent You from running into the situation You were!

 

regards
Wolfgang

Re: philosophy requested behind that kind of dimensioning in 2D and extruded 2D

Gears Esteemed Contributor Gears Esteemed Contributor
Gears Esteemed Contributor

@hawcadhawcad wrote:

If You have a locked dimension (RED) then YOu only can change this dimesnion value by changing the value itself but not with a mouse action.

 

Yes and no. That can be true or false depending on design intent settings.

 

 

Bruce Shand
ST10 MP7 - Insight - Win10 - K4200

Re: philosophy requested behind that kind of dimensioning in 2D and extruded 2D

Gears Esteemed Contributor Gears Esteemed Contributor
Gears Esteemed Contributor

Hi @bshand

 

 

 

another point for You.

 

But as long as the question only was regarding the dimension itself and not the limits behind this will be the first approach for @Hans11 to come to.

 

And Yes, of course if You will try to get a modification against active Design Rules You will  loose and recieve an warning

But latest here You will be able to overrule the Design Rules by the power of the Designer!

 

regards
Wolfgang

Re: philosophy requested behind that kind of dimensioning in 2D and extruded 2D

Gears Esteemed Contributor Gears Esteemed Contributor
Gears Esteemed Contributor

I get points?!



But latest here You will be able to overrule the Design Rules by the power of the Designer!

 


I would hope that's true for ordered and sync.

 



Bruce Shand
ST10 MP7 - Insight - Win10 - K4200

Re: philosophy requested behind that kind of dimensioning in 2D and extruded 2D

Genius
Genius

Dear Wolfgang,

 

thank You for the explanation.  I must admit, I find Solid Edge in this point not very consistently structured.

 

Look at the scetch in my video with two identical rectangulars, both where dimensioned using the "Smart Dimension" tool at the time both of them still were 2D. Afterwards I extruded one of them and labelled its new (third) dimension - again using the "Smart Dimension" tool. Now all dimension labels look identical, they are just blue.

 

But the labels showing the 2D part have a significantly different functionality, then those at the extruded part.

Clicking at the 2D labels, I can modify some settings, but they don't modify the geometry this way. Double clicking on the label makes a little window open, where I can put in a new value for the length. The label now is changed showing the inserted new value, but the true geometry is unvaried (making the underlined label showing a false value).   To change the geometry I have to click on the line itself.

Different becomes the behaviour of the same labels, after the rectangular was extruded to 3D. Now clicking on the label changes the geometry. The little window for filling in the new dimension (looking identical like the one acting on the 2D label) opens, I can put in a new value and here the geometry is modified at once.

 

That means:

same look but different way to modify:

  • to change the geometry in 3D - click the label
  • to change the geometry in 2D - click the border
  • identically looking blue labels have different behaviour in 2D and 3D

an identically looking window for insertion of the length has different behaviour in 2D and 3D

  • inserting a value in 2D changes the label but NOT the geometry
  • inserting a value in 3D changes the label AND the geometry

 

(view in My Videos)

 

May be it's just for historic reasons, but I find it confusing, if dimensions look identical but behave differently. And I do not understand the need of that in terms of driving or driven geometry. The functionality of a geometry changes exactly in the moment it is extruded from 2D to 3D. I use the same "Smart Dimension" tool for dimensioning, which is found in the scetch environment same as in the PMI environment. If it places different kinds of labels, that is invisible for me in the display of the geometry and the labels.

 

best regards

Hans

 

 

 

 

 

 

Re: philosophy requested behind that kind of dimensioning in 2D and extruded 2D

Gears Esteemed Contributor Gears Esteemed Contributor
Gears Esteemed Contributor

Hi @Hans11

 

 

again, I only can claim and explain what we already had:

 

Those two things are twototally different issues!

 

Exapt to not compare and consider a 2D sketch and a 2D dimension to be the same or to work in the same manner as a Synchronous 3D face/object

 

Maybe there should be more colors for differ between them, but I'm absoluteely confident abvout, that we do not have ebnough colors for showing all possible solutions and situations.

To be more precise, of course we will have anough colors, but man could not different between them and I think I will not remember every color and its meaning.

 

 

  • So a sketch dim is a sketch dim and always will be as a sketch dim!
  • A skecth in sync onlky is the first step to define 3D geometry - not more!
  • after consuming this sketch geometry - forget it!
  • there is no further connection between Your used sketch and the 3D geometry You build out of it!
  • do quantification - which is in fact dimensioning - in sync only for Your 3D objects and not for 2D sketches
    This doesn't make any sense later on
  • If You can or will not accept this rules, then I recomment to use traditional mode rather than synchronous
    Here Your old procedures and thought will be more in fact

 

The video also shows changes using the steering wheel.

Here You are selected different object and do different modifications

Once You select the area, then a line and finally the complete sketch.

Different objects in select set will act differently.

And You have tunred of Design Rules!

Would not do so as long as You are not fully understanding sync and those belongs together Design Rules

 

Again, if not done already, I can recomment the Sync e-book for "History Based Users" by Matt Lombard

 

https://community.plm.automation.siemens.com/t5/Solid-Edge-Blog/Free-eBook-Synchronous-for-the-Histo...

 

 

 

regards
Wolfgang

Re: philosophy requested behind that kind of dimensioning in 2D and extruded 2D

Genius
Genius

Hallo Wolfgang,

 

thank You for taking the time to answer and also for the hint to this book. I guess there is no such book in german language?

 

I now realized that the dimensioning in 2D is consistent with 3D in the sequential mode. Only in 3D synchronous mode, the dimensioning is different. Dimensioning in 3D synchronous mode is powerfull and comfortable to use. I just don't understand, why 2D in synchronous mode could not work in the same mode, making the synchronous mode consistent between 2D and 3D.
 

Yes, it seems one just has to learn, that they are different, even while looking same.

I came across this question, when I wanted to modify the initial 2D structure and was confused that the nice and simple to use 3D-PMI-methods didn't work as expected in 2D.

 

After one gets used to this, of course this is no problem any more - it's just simply more to learn (after some fruitless trials to understand in the beginning) and it would have been nice to need to learn less.

 

best regards

Hans